On the Hoshana Rabbah YouTube channel (https://www.youtube.com/user/HoshanaRabbah?feature=mhee), I have been getting a lot of comments (both pro and con) on my video entitled “Flat Earth Foolishness.” A few people are so caught up in this madness that they have even dropped their subscription to the HR channel. Personally, I could care less.
Here are some comments that I have posted on my channel pertaining to my flat earth video that you might find interesting:
First comment:
YHVH Elohim has called me to preach the gospel of Yeshua the Messiah and to connect it to the pro-Torah Hebrew roots of the faith. This is where the spiritual life and power of Elohim to transforms lives is to be found. This is the river of life, and it centers on the Written Torah-Word of Elohim and Yeshua the Messiah, the Living Torah-Word of Elohim. To me, anything else is a distracting (and sometimes a doctrine of demons) side issue. I have to be obedient to the instructions given to me from my Heavenly Commander and Chief. The only time I address side issues (like the flat earth debate) is not for the purpose of debating, but to bring people back to the centrality of the pro-Torah gospel message. This is what Yeshua and the apostles preached; this is what I preach. Period. The main purpose of this video was not to debate the pros and cons of the flat earth theory. You all know where I stand on this. I think its silliness—and I have looked into the evidence on both sides of the issue, so I’m not bigoted. My main point is that Hebrew roots teachers are to be following the example of Yeshua and the apostles and to be preaching the gospel. Flat earth vs. spherical earth IS NOT preaching the gospel. By in large, these kinds of topics distract people away from the gospel message. As Hebrew roots folks we’re to be preaching the commandments of Elohim and the testimony of Yeshua as per Rev 12:17 and 14:12. This is the mark of the true end time saints, bride of Yeshua. The gospel is what convicts of sin, redeems and saves and brings one to eternal life, and not these other side issues. Yet side issues like flat earth is what some teachers largely base their teaching ministries on. This is not following the command of Yeshua to preach the gospel or to make disciples. This is not following the examples of the apostles who did the same. I will go so far as to say that those Hebrew roots teachers whose ministries aren’t primarily gospel oriented are teaching another gospel—one that is foreign to that of Yeshua and the apostles. Unless you like to have your ears tickled with irrelevant nonsense, AVOID THESE TEACHERS LIKE THE PLAGUE. To the degree that they get caught up on these side issues, they are not doing the will of Yeshua. They are walking in disobedience and rebellion to Yeshua! That is the big point I am trying to make on this video. Those of you who don’t get this or who are so naive and ill-informed about the true message of the Scriptures that you think subjects like the flat earth are actually important, salvational and part of the trunk of the tree of biblical doctrine—sorry, but I don’t think I can help you. Nothing I say will make much difference to you.
Second comment:
I don’t care if you believe in a flat earth or not. Personally, I think it’s foolishness, but that’s your freewill choice. Whether you believe in a flat or spherical earth IS NOT a salvational issue. What I have a problem with is Bible teachers who make this a spiritual trunk of the tree issue when they should be preaching the message of the gospel and lifting up Yeshua as the path of salvation and the way to the Father and to eternal life. This is the gospel message the Yeshua and the apostles taught, and the Scriptures command us to imitate him in everything. There is no record in the Scriptures of Yeshua and the apostles DID NOT getting caught up in tangential side issues like the flat earth. They stuck to the main message of the gospel. So why do some so-called Hebrew roots teachers veer away from the truth of the Scriptures by failing to make the preaching of the gospel the main thing and get caught up in things like conspiracies, aliens, the Book of Enoch, the Illuminati and the flat earth? Is preaching the gospel message not sufficient in their eyes? Why? Do they really think that their method of winning the spiritually lost is better than that used by Yeshua and the apostles? If so, then the methodologies of these teachers need to be, at least, seriously questioned if not totally rejected as being unbiblical! Humans, sadly, are always wanting to hear something new and exciting. Sensationalism sells. It tickles the ears. Moreover, it often brings great financial profits and popularity to the promoters of it as well. The problem is that sensationalistic teachings like the flat earth can’t save you spiritually. It can’t help you to overcome sin and to walk more perfectly in the righteous ways of the Torah. It cannot deliver you from the guilt and shame of a sinful past. It cannot bring you into a right relationship with your heavenly Father. It cannot heal broken relationships and help you to overcome sinful addictions and bad moral behavior. It cannot carry you past the dark veil of death and into the glorious light of Yeshua’s immortal and eternal kingdom. ONLY YESHUA THROUGH THE POWER OF THE GOSPEL MESSAGE WITH THE HELP OF HIS SPIRIT CAN!! This is why the gospel message must remain the main focus of our attention. This is the apostolic message of the New Testament/Testimony of Yeshua. Those Hebrew roots teachers who don’t focus on this should be rejected as spiritual advisors, teachers, wise counselors and leaders. Period. This is my main point. I hope the reader can receive this.
Agreed!
Excellent!
Amen! We press forward for the prize in Yeshua Ha Messiah!
Natan, great responses..
The “Flat earth” or “round earth” is not a salvation issue or a “spiritual trunk of the tree” as some bible teachers are pushing the topic as if it is.
But…
There are many including myself who read verses for example Jos 10:13 that say “the sun stood still” and start to think how did the sun stand still? Was the sun moving? And many will conclude that it was literally moving.
Jos 10:13 And THE SUN STOOD STILL, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.
So what do we make of that? Is the sun really moving as the bible SEEMS to say? Or is the earth moving as we have been taught through science. Which is the truth?
I believe even though this is NOT a salvation issue or a “spiritual trunk of the tree” it is an instance of truth.. What is the truth on this?
As we know lies can be used against us, to hurt us, fool us, mislead us etc..
That is what we are seeing with this current “flat earth “ movement.
If we can show people how to properly understand the verses that SEEM to indicate a flat earth, then fewer are less likely to fall for the lie..
Also, in many instances one lie usually can lead to more bigger lies.. which means we are off reality, off the truth..
So Natan while this is not a core issue I do think it is strong enough topic (as ii is evident) that we should be able to help people see the truth of what Elohim’s word says and not just COME ACROSS as ignoring the verses as that does not help people who are truly seeking the truth, rather they will conclude one didn’t study it so he really doesn’t know the answer..
Again I believe your responses need to be said to remind people this is not as big an issue as some bible teachers have made it out to be, but I also believe that it should be followed up with proper guidance and understanding of the verses being wrongly used to prove a flat earth.. it also helps to know reality and how the mechanics of the universe work thru verifiable evidence. Not everyone is knowledgeable in all areas to do this and is part of the reason so many are being fooled on this topic.
I believe doing both will most effectively help clear up the improper teaching on this topic.
Thank you for your responses as of all the responses I have seen on this topic (and I have seen a lot) I don’t think anyone has brought your perceptive to the table.
There are many mysteries in the Bible that we don’t understand. We just have to put them on a shelf and wait for full understanding to come. Until then, we must refrain from the tendency to codify our speculations and make doctrines on presumptions.
I have just come to appreciate my somewhat solitary life style a little more. It seems that I have missed this newest nonscense. Thought we had left those things behind with,” I thought as a child and spoke as a child”.
I’ve been a Sabbath keeper since 2001, progressing in Hebraic understanding along the way. A spirited discussion with someone of a differing understanding, a challenging book or article, always exciting. If we stop asking questions, we stop growing. I’d be sitting in front of the prayer candles, rattleing my rosary with the rest of ’em, if I didn’t ask questions.
So it seems that the best thing Ive done is realize that I need to sweep my path often. This latest rock in the road may be a stumbling for some. Personally, I have my broom in hand already. Bless Yah, for his clear Word, and his ministers of sound Truth.
Well said. It is very sad how caught up in side issues people get and it takes away from the true message of salvation that was intended. Seriously, its not like Yeshuah will be handing out points to whoever solves the mystery of what shape the earth is. Personally I believe in a spherical earth but I can see points on both sides. While an interesting topic, it really doesn’t matter, nor do i really care. I am still just as small and the earth is still enormous. Its not a sin to believe the earth could be a different shape, but I do believe it is a sin to teach others something that isn’t true. Since there is no printed picture of the earth in the bible, I don’t think anyone who has not personally been to outer space and taken a ligitimate picture or traveled all the way through Antarctica should be teaching on this issue. Now if you meet that criteria right there, feel free to share your findings otherwise please keep all your false doctrine to yourself so we can stay focused on important issues.
I may think a flat eath is silly but i do not judge flat earth thinkers and I don’t have a problem with people examining the evidence on both sides. Its good to know why we believe what we believe. My issue is with people turning it into a doctrine and putting it above the message of the gospel. That should be priority number one.
I agree.
Consider these points:
Why are we getting sidetracked about the shape of the earth when the lost sheep of Israel are to be gathered in?
Why are people so passionate about the shape of the earth enough to bombard my blog and YouTube channel with all kinds of emotionalism, when we can hardly get anyone excited about Yeshua and the gospel message?
Of the hundreds of topics I have covered on my YouTube channel and on this blog, no subject has generated so much rancor. Why?
Yeshua rebuked the church at Ephesus (Rev 2) for losing their first love (i.e. for Yeshua), although they were faithful in the works of Torah-obedience. Yeshua also rebuked the Laodiceans for being lukewarm. How is it that people get so worked up over the shape of the earth, but can’t get excited about winning the lost, preaching the gospel, making disciples for Yeshua, and generally doing the great commission? What’s the deal?
It’s this: People are passionate for the wrong things because of lukewarmness and turning from loving Yeshua. Their priorities are all wrong. When someone points it out, they shoot the messenger! Many have come under a strong delusion. Turning from a passion for the gospel and focusing their passion on silly side issues that in now way expands the kingdom of Elohim except in their mad delusions!
Paul took the Galatians to task for turning to ANOTHER GOSPEL. He even double cursed them for it! He called them bewitched (coming under the evil spell of someone/thing). I didn’t curse flat earth believers though I referred to the foolishness and stupidity of it. I wonder how some flat earthers would have responded to Paul’s “abusive” language had they been on the receiving end of his rebuke for getting sidetracked away from the basic gospel message?
Instead of focusing on the shape of the earth, we should be focusing on preaching the gospel, healing the sick, casting out demons, setting the captives free, feeding the hungry, visiting those in prison, and resurrecting the dead both spiritually and literally. Yeshua said these signs and wonders would follow those who preach the gospel——not those who preach the earth is flat or spherical. How many of you flat earthers have ever done these things? If not, why not? It’s your reasonable service as commanded by the one who bought you with his blood? How many of you spherical earth people have done these things? Time to take a long and hard look at the fruits of your lives!
There is supernatural dunamis power in the preaching of the gospel message to save the lost. Why are we not focusing on this and getting passionate for these things instead of whether the earth is flat or round?
The Messianic/Hebrew Roots Movement is sick!!!! It is powerless!!! The Charismatic and Pentecostal churches I spent a few years in back in the 1990s had more miraculous power than most Hebrew Roots people and congregations! What’s wrong here? We have the Torah, which is great, but we don’t have the power. I’m a watchman. I’ve travelled and been around and talked with hundreds of national leaders and pastors in this movement. They all tell me the same thing: We’re missing something. This is it: We’ve stopped loving Yeshua and stopped doing the great commission. Instead, we’re worshipping at the altar of intellectualism. This is idolatry. We’d sooner discuss flat earth than healing the sick and preaching the gospel and reaching out to lost. Shame on us! We have bought into a form of neo-gnosticism. We’re so proud of ourselves because we have some exclusive, hidden revelation that the next guy doesn’t have, which makes us special and superior to the uninitiated on the outside. What onerous pride!
Someone wrote and told me that the flat earth was a divine revelation. Sorry. Wrong! It’s a delusion to get you away from doing the great commission.
We’ve turned away from Yeshua and are turning to winds of doctrine, fairy tales and legalistic works as our main raison d’être. How pathetic! Do you think Yeshua is pleased? No! He’s about to spew us out of his mouth unless we repent.
A few years back, I did a couple of how-to videos on evangelism——on how to reach out to the lost. I gave helpful tips from my years as an urban missionary evangelist. Want to know something? They’re near the bottom of the list as the least watched videos on the Hoshana Rabbah YouTube channel out of about 250 videos. This speak volumes about how sick the Hebrew Roots Movement is!
Personally, I don’t care if everyone unsubscribes from my YouTube Channel and this blog ceases having readers and if everyone quits the congregation I pastor. I can’t be bought. I don’t take any money for what I do, and so I’m not preaching with dollar signs in my eyes. I cut and prune trees for a living for the last 40 years. If they’re sick, I dig and dung them and bring them back to health. Otherwise I take my chainsaw and cut them down and run them through my brush chipper and grind out the stump. This is a no-nonsesne business. I hang from trees by ropes working with chainsaws inches from my face. No fear here! It’s what I do. I take the same approach when preaching biblical truth. I’m a rough guy—not your typical Jezebel-Ahab church system pastor/Bible teacher. We’re living in tough times, and it’s going to take tough people to confront a hard-hearted, stiff-necked, rebellious, sottish and prideful generation to prepare the way for Yeshua. If you guys don’t like this approach, then switch the channel. Don’t spew your venom out against me. I’ll simply delete your comment.
I care only about the truth and about following Yeshua my Messiah. They crucified Yeshua, cut off John’s head, sawed Isaiah in two, crucified Peter upside down, threw Jeremiah in a well and the put Paul in prison for years on top of his beatings, stonings and whippings. I don’t care what comes as long as I can keep preaching the gospel. Those of you who don’t like me for this, then bring it on and MAKE MY DAY!
And on that note, I just subscribed! Thanks for saying what needs to be said.
I kinda look at this apparent foolishness differently than most. I am excited that many are ACTUALLY starting to really READ their Bibles and are challenged by what it says. I’m not threatened by the small beginnings of many and I’m not going to look down upon them or make fun of them. We are all at different stages of our walk and the Father will use interesting ways to draw His children. Their questions is a start, and if that can get them to start paying attention to the truth of scripture, I’ll rejoice!
The fathers of the faith saw the earth as “flat” as well, although it wasn’t their comstant focus – they did operate from the foundation of this belief. YHVH is first revealed in Scripture as CREATOR – so if the creation declares the glory of YHVH and can get people to wake up to HIM, I’ll rejoice.
I am concerned by the fact that so many believers are threatened by their questions regarding this topic? I find it strange and confusing?
Becoming child like are going to make us ask some pretty “foolish” questions at times. I will not joke or make fun when my 5 year old asks questions that seems SO OBVIOUS to me. I will use their hunger for Truth to point to Messiah, to search the Scriptures with them through prayer and humbleness and in love and patience to the best of my ability. Many have become afraid of asking questions to leaders, because of the severe reaction they get to their foolish questions.
Maybe we should use their questions as a platform to point to our Creator, whose glory fills the WHOLE earth?
I do not want to fight or cause division. I love Messiah and this journey has been difficult this far. I merely want to point out the perspective of a nobody who also has questions and hungers for brothers and sisters who are willing to handle my foolish questions with kindness. If the stones of harshness are going to start raining down on this comment – I bless you right now, ahead of time.
Thank you for your blog Mr Lawrence and the opportunity to comment. You are a blessing to us! Much Shalom in Messiah.
Very well said and I agree with the heart and spirit of your comments.
I remain constantly concerned when so-called Bible teachers raise an issue that they cherry pick from the Bible that’s tangential and then make that the main focus of their ministry. This leads people away from the basic message of the gospel as Yeshua and the apostles taught it.
If people want to believe the earth is made out of green cheese, what’s that to me? My problem is when so-called Bible teachers make that their main “gospel” message, lead people astray and make money off of them all at the same time. On this, I will not remain silent. It is destructive to the body of Yeshua. This is not what Yeshua and the disciples did; therefore, it’s not the modus operandi to follow. That’s the bottom line. I will call a counterfeit false gospel for what it is and call the purveyors of it to account.
Yes, my children—I have four—asked many sincere questions out of honesty, for which I never rebuked them. However, when self-professing Bible teachers who claim to be experts get up and lead YHVH’s children away from the simplicity of the gospel message and get people’s attention focused elsewhere, this is not good. These are grievous wolves. They are not children, and we must beware of them.
One more quick thing. I’m not convinced that any or all of the earliest church fathers believed the earth was flat. The ancient Greeks certainly didn’t. But if they did, this means very little to me. Many of them also hated the Jews along the Torah with all of it’s commandments. They also incorporated a few pagan traditions into Christianity along the way. I have written on this subject and extensively documented it thoroughly over the years, and have their writings in my library.
Again, thanks for you comments. Blessings!