John 1:1, The Word was God [Elohim]. Is Yeshua or the Father the God (Elohim) of the Old Testament (Tanakh)?
For many believers in Yeshua, there is confusion as to who it was in the Godhead who interacted with the Israelites in the Tankah. Was it the Father or the Son?
In the minds of the apostolic writers, there was no confusion about this. Yeshua, in his preincarnate state, was the One that YHVH Elohim the Father used to both create and then to interact with mankind. He was the Word of YHVH Elohim, the Father, who become flesh and dwelt among men (verse 14). This truth is easily confirmed in several passages in the Testimony of Yeshua (New Testament).
First, Yeshua himself claims to be YHVH or the I Am of the burning bush (see John 8:58 cp. Exod 3:14). The Jews viewed Yeshua’s claim as blasphemous, which is why they picked up stones to kill him (John 8:59).
Next, Yeshua in declaring to the Jewish religious leaders that “I send you prophets, wise men and scribes: some you will kill…” (Matt 23:34), he is claiming the rights and prerogatives of YHVH—a right and role that solely belonged to YHVH in the Tanakh.
Yeshua also declared that no man has seen the face of Elohim the Father (John 5:37). Yet in the Torah, we have several instances of men seeing YHVH (e.g., Gen 17:1; 18:1; 26:2; 48:3). If we are to take what these scriptures say as literal, then it could not have been YHVH the Father these individuals saw, but YHVH the Son who later become Yeshua.
Not only that, Yeshua even goes so far as to say that the Israelites of old not only didn’t see the Father’s face, but neither at anytime even saw his form nor heard his voice (John 5:37). Therefore, it becomes evident that while on Mount Sinai, Moses didn’t see the backside of the Father, but of the pre-incarnate Yeshua (Exod 33:18–23).
What’s more, in John 14:15, Yeshua, speaking to his disciples, declares, “If you love me, keep my commandments.” When Yeshua says commandments here, we know from Luke 18:20 that he has the Torah in mind. In this statement, Yeshua is actually quoting himself when he made the same statement to the children of Israel while he was delivering to them the Oracles or Torah of Elohim (Exod 20:6; Deut 11:1).
Stephen, in agreement with John, clearly demonstrates that Yeshua was the prophesied “prophet like Moses” who was to come (see Deut 18:15), and who was the Angel, or more correctly, the Divine Messenger from Elohim, who gave the Torah to the Israelites (Acts 7:37–38).
Paul goes on to say in enigmatic terms that Yeshua was the spiritual rock from which the Israelites drank and that followed them (1 Cor 10:4). And finally, Paul equates Yeshua, “the Word of Elohim made flesh and that dwelt among us” (John 1:14) with the Written Torah that YHVH gave through Moses to the Israelites. This he does when he quotes Deuteronomy 30:11–14 and substitutes the word Torah for Yeshua (see Rom 10:5–13). In Paul’s mind, Yeshua was not only synonymous with the Torah, but he was very much present with the children of Israel.
Do you have some additional proofs from the Testimony of Yeshua to share with this blog family that show how Yeshua is the God of the Old Testament?
Here is my favorite proof:
The New King James Version of the Bible uses the designation “the Angel of the Lord” fifty three times in the Hebrew Scriptures. A close look at these references will quickly demonstrate that the “Angel” of Yehovah is no ordinary angel! The term “AN angel of Yehovah” (the “Lord”) is not used in the Hebrew Scriptures. (Only beginning in Matthew does AN “ordinary angel” or Messenger speak to Joseph about the baby that Mary is to have—the Word or ‘Messenger’ being made flesh!)
Hagar spoke with “the Messenger of Yehovah”, and was greatly moved! She correctly identified Him as “Elohim” and “Yehovah”, and was one of several people who were surprised to have remained alive after seeing Him. It seems that everyone was aware that Elohim the Father said: “You cant see My face, because people cant see Me and live”. No one could have told Hagar that “the Son” was to be frequently seen by men!
Genesis 16:7-14 The Messenger of Yehovah found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain on the way to Shur. 8 He said, “Hagar, Sarai’s handmaid, where did you come from? Where are you going?” She said, “I’m fleeing from the presence of my mistress Sarai. 9 The Messenger of Yehovah told her, “Return to your mistress, and submit yourself to her authority. 10 The Messenger of Yehovah told her, “I’ll greatly multiply your descendants, so that they will be beyond counting. 11 The Messenger of Yehovah told her, “Look, you are pregnant, and will give birth to a son. You’ll name him Ishmael [he became Father of the Arabs], because Yehovah has heard your distress. 12 He’ll be like a wild ass of a man. His fist will be against everyone, and everyone’s fist will be against him. He’ll live in hostility toward all his brothers 13 And she called the name of YEHOVAH who spake unto her, “You are the ELOHIM who revealed Himself,” for she said, “I have just stayed alive after seeing Him!” 14 So the well was called Beer Lahai Roi. It’s between Kadesh and Bered!
(Beer Lahai Roi appears to mean “well of the One who revealed Himself to me.”)
The references to the “the Angel of God” (Messenger of Elohim) are apparently always identical to the “the Angel of the LORD” in the Hebrew as well. Some time later, in a time of distress in the desert, The Messenger of Elohim spoke to Hagar again, this time from the sky. He, “Elohim”, reminded her about His promise: “I will make him a great nation”; then He intervened and saved their lives.
The soon to be parents of Samson also had an encounter with the Messenger of Yehovah. Manoah asked Him His name, but the name that Manoah was given revealed nothing to him. Only the Messenger’s amazing exit helped reveal His identity. Then Manoah too thought that he was going to die “because we have seen Elohim”, but his wife, being less shaken by the shocking event, knew that Yehovah had no such intentions.
Manoa had a similar experience:
Judges 13:17-24 Manoah asked the Messenger of Yehovah, “What is your name, so that when your words happen, we may honor You?” 18 The Messenger of Yehovah asked him, “Why do you ask about My name, seeing it’s Wonderful?” 19 So Manoah took a young goat and a meal offering, and offered it on the rock to Yehovah, and the Messenger worked wonders while Manoah and his wife looked on. 20 Then when the flame went up toward the sky from off the altar, the Messenger of Yehovah ascended in the flame of the altar, and Manoah and his wife looked on, and they fell on their faces to the ground. 21 But the Messenger of Yehovah was no longer visible to Manoah or to his wife. Then Manoah realized that He had been the Messenger of Yehovah. 22 Manoah said to his wife, “We will surely die, because we have seen Elohim.” 23 But his wife told him, “If Yehovah wanted to kill us, He wouldnt have received a burnt offering and a meal offering by our hands, nor would He have shown us all these things, nor would He have told us all of these things at this time.” 24 The woman carried a son, and named him Samson, and the child grew, and Yehovah blessed him.
“Yeshua” was deliberately hiding His identity by using the most obscure name that He possessed: “Wonderful”.
From your reference to Genesis 17 we see clearly that “Yehovah” or “El” appeared to Abram:
Genesis 17:1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, Yehovah appeared to Abram, and told him, “I’m El the Almighty. Come into My presence and be blameless.
I would add this to the list of people who saw “Elohim”, (the pre incarnate Yeshua) in person:
Exodus 24:9-11 Then Moses, Aaron, Nadab, Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel went up. 10 They saw the Elohim of Israel. Under His feet it was like a paved work of sapphire stone, like the sky in clarity. 11 He didnt lay His hand on the leaders of the Israelites. They saw Elohim, and ate and drank.
So the pre incarnate Yeshua had no problem appearing to 74 people and having a meal with them.
But I have a different perspective on Who Moses was with on the mountain top. Why would “Yeshua” have had to take such special precautions not to have His face seen, even stowing Moses in a crevice for safety, when He had just had a banquet with the 74—no crevice, no shielding with His hand, no life threatening precautions?
Exodus 33:17 Yehovah told Moses, “I’ll do what you’ve asked, because I look favorably on you, and I know you by name. 18 He said, “‘Please’ show me Your splendor. 19 He said, “I’ll cause all My goodness to pass in front of you, and proclaim before you My name, Yehovah. I’ll show favor to anyone I want to, and I’ll be compassionate with anyone I want to. 20 But He said, “You cant see My face, because no one can see Me and live. 21 Then Yehovah said, “Look, there’s a place next to Me where you can stand on the rock. 22 Then, while My splendor passes by, I’ll put you in a crevice in the rock, and cover you with My hand until I’ve passed by, 23 then I’ll take away My hand, and you’ll see My back, but you wont see My face.
Your interpretation of John 5:37: “the Israelites of old not only didn’t see the Father’s face, but neither at anytime even saw his form nor heard his voice”, seems quite a stretch:
John 5:37 And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You [same “you” as in vss 33 & 35] have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form. NASV
I take Moses mountain experience as a “close encounter” with the Father. A unique experience under shielded circumstances. I hope that this does not seem too picky, seeing that we are in basic agreement on the relevance of the pre iuncarnate Yeshua.
Thank you dear brother for posting this blog and for letting comment. The original bible (the targums that were not catholisized have a very clear answer): JERUSALEM Targum (old testament before Catholics or their corruptions) – Exodus Chapter 6 . And the Lord was revealed in His Word unto Abraham, to Izhak, and to Jakob, AS THE GOD OF HEAVEN; but the Name of the Word of the Lord was not known to them. No one has seen the true God – they saw the one who spoke as and acted as God – the Word of Yahweh. Oh yes, the catholics removed hundreds of the instances of the Spirit of the Word – talking and acting as God from their Bible to make the Hellenistic incarnating trinity and incarnation fit. For example let’s look on mount Saini at Moses, the Word and his God and Father. . – Exodus (Shemoth) Chapter 33: Targum of Onkelos (Mosheh speaking with the Word of Yahweh who is speaking for Yahweh) And he said, Show me, I pray, Thy Glory! And He said, I will make all My Goodness pass before thy face, and I will proclaim the Name of the Lord before thee, and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and have mercy on whom I will have mercy. And He said, THOU CANST NOT SEE THE FACE OF MY SHEKINAH; for NO MAN CAN SEE ME AND ABIDE ALIVE. And the Lord said, Behold, there is a place prepared before Me, and thou shalt stand upon the rock, and it shall be, when My Glory passes, I will put thee in a cavern of the rock, and MY WORD SHALL OVERSHADOW THEE UNTIL I HAVE PASSED; and I will take away THE WORD OF MY GLORY, and thou shalt see that which is after Me, BUT MY ASPECT SHALL NOT BE SEEN.
From the Jewish Encyclopedia:
Shekinah: The majestic presence or manifestation of God
So when the Word exclaimed in the flesh as the begotten Son of God: John 5:37-40 King James Version (KJV) 37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
Our Messiah Yeshua was not lying, no one has seen the personage of God or heard His voice – The Spirit and body they saw, the voice they heard was Yeshua’s – speaking as Yahweh – as the Word of Yahweh. Whether as a Spirit called the Word of Yahweh speaking or acting as God or as Yeshua speaking and acting as his God and creator in the spirit and flesh.
Our Lord Yeshua, the Word of Yahweh was born of Yahweh in the Spirit not just the flesh. This among things is what the catholics, in the spirit of anti-christ wants the world to deny, to cover-up.
ISAIAH 10 (BEN UZIEL Targum – )
11 Thus saith the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, AND HE THAT FORMED HIM, Ye question me about things concerning my people, which shall come to pass; and will ye command me concerning the work of my power? 12 It is I who have made the earth by my Word, and I have created man upon it; it is I who have suspended the heavens by my power, and I have laid the foundation of all the hosts of them. 13 It is I who will verily bring him forth publicly, and all his paths I will direct: he shall build my city, and he shall let the captives of my people go, not for a price nor for money, saith the Lord of hosts.
I’m not sure that you caught that – and He that formed Him –
The apostles knew this as well:
Colossians 1:12Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15Who is the image of the invisible God, THE FIRSTBORN OF EVERY CREATURE: 16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Isaiah 10:11 Thus saith the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, AND HE THAT FORMED HIM, Ye question me about things concerning my people, which shall come to pass; and will ye command me concerning the work of my power? 12 It is I who have made the earth by my Word, and I have created man upon it;
1 John 4: …2By this you will know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that the Messiah Yeshua has come in the flesh is from God, 3 and every spirit that does
not confess Yeshua, is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming, and is already in the world at this time.
You may think that denying the creation, the birth of the Spirit of the Word means nothing, because of the delusion that we grew up in, but please reconsider: Matthew 10:33 But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny BEFORE MY FATHER who is in heaven.
Mark 15:34 Yeshua exclaimed, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”
Luke 23:46 And when Yeshua had cried out with a loud voice, He said, “Father, ‘INTO YOUR HANDS I commit My SPIRIT.’ ” Having said this, He breathed His last.
James 2:26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. John 20:17 Yeshua said – ‘I am ascending to MY FATHER and YOUR FATHER, and to MY GOD and YOUR GOD.’ ” John 14:28 He also said – , ‘I am going to the Father,’ for MY FATHER IS GREATER THAN I.
In one or two sentences, what is the bottom line of what you’re trying to say here about Yeshua the Messiah?
Years ago, I wrote and published an article proving the deity of Yeshua the Messiah from the Tanakh (Old Testament) using the Targumim,the writings of the Jewish sages, and the Hebrew Scriptures. I address many of the issues that you bring up in your comment. You can find it at
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