{"id":15057,"date":"2019-07-20T18:59:38","date_gmt":"2019-07-21T01:59:38","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/hoshanarabbah.org\/blog\/?p=15057"},"modified":"2019-07-20T18:59:46","modified_gmt":"2019-07-21T01:59:46","slug":"dear-natan-how-were-the-ot-israelites-saved","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/hoshanarabbah.org\/blog\/2019\/07\/20\/dear-natan-how-were-the-ot-israelites-saved\/","title":{"rendered":"Dear Natan: How were the OT Israelites saved?"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Questions from Mark:<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p style=\"color:#0015a3\" class=\"has-text-color wp-block-paragraph\"><strong><em>Did the OT Israelites got saved through faith plus works?<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Natan&#8217;s answer:<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The answer is no. The biblical \u201cformula\u201d for initial salvation has never changed: it is and always has been salvation by grace through faith in Yeshua the Messiah.. Paul addresses this issue in Rom 4 in his discussion about Abraham being justified by faith. He also addresses it in his oft-quoted Eph 2:8 passage. But in verse 10 he goes on to say that the proof or fruits that we are actually saved is the \u201cgood works\u201d that we are called to \u201cwalk in.\u201d This may sound to some people like a grace plus works-based equation, but man-made labels of any kind are not helpful in explaining the deep mysteries of the gospel. All I can do is to point people to the Bible verses and then let the Word of Elohim speak for itself. Either people have the heart and mind to receive the truth or they don\u2019t. I have no control over that. If people don\u2019t agree with the Bible, then their argument is with the Bible, not with me.&nbsp;<br \/>Moreover Yeshua said, &#8220;if you love me, keep my commandments\u201d (John 14:6). We also have numerous other passages along similar lines that we could quote as well in this regard.<br \/>In several places in Romans, Paul said that we\u2019re not justified by works, but then James goes on to say that faith without works is dead and that man is justified by works (Jas 2:14\u201326). So are Paul and James opposed to each other? Is the Word of Elohim divided? May it never be so. Paul is talking about one\u2019s initial salvation, while James is talking about once one is saved they have to back up their salvation with righteous works. Sounds exactly like what Paul is saying in Eph 2:8 and 10 and in Rom 2:13. It\u2019s also what Paul is saying about the fruits of the Spirit in Gal 5 being evidence of one\u2019s life in the Spirit (i.e. that one is saved and in relationship with Yeshua). It is also what Each of those fruits of the Spirit are a Torah-principle, while the works of the flesh are also a violation of a Torah principle. All of this may all seem confusing to those who understand works, justification, salvation and faith from a typical linear and singular dimensional Christian viewpoint, but the apostles are discussing various facets, dimensions, aspect and levels of salvation that seems to have escaped many biblical teachers who have crammed the concept of \u201csalvation\u201d into a neatly labeled Greco-Roman theological box that, quite frankly, missed many of the finer points of the subject, and a result, has made many false converts to Christianity (as Yeshua discusses in the Parable of the Wheat and Tares and the Good Fish and Bad Fish Parable. The supernal and uninvestigatable concepts of the Creator of the universe don\u2019t fit so neatly into our pathetically small man-made theological boxes.&nbsp;<br \/>The bottom line is that the Bible teaches that one who knowingly and willfully disobey\u2019s the commandments of Elohim either wasn\u2019t saved in the first place, or lost their salvation along the way as Yeshua\u2019s Parable of the Sower illustrates. So we aren\u2019t saved by our good works, but our good works determine two things: whether we retain our salvation (for our good works are the very fruits of the Spirit\u2019s activity in our lives) after being saved initially, and our good works secure our rewards in YHVH\u2019s kingdom (Matt 5:19 and many other Scriptures).&nbsp;<br \/>These are some important biblical truths that are often not taught in the mainstream church.<\/p>\n<div class=\"evernoteSiteMemory\"><a href=\"javascript:\" onclick=\"Evernote.doClip({title: 'Dear Natan: How were the OT Israelites saved?',url: 'https:\/\/hoshanarabbah.org\/blog\/2019\/07\/20\/dear-natan-how-were-the-ot-israelites-saved\/',contentID: 'post-15057',suggestTags: '',providerName: 'Hoshana Rabbah Blog',styling: 'text' });return false\" class=\"evernoteSiteMemoryLink\"><img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/static.evernote.com\/article-clipper.png\" \nclass=\"evernoteSiteMemoryButton\" \/>\n\t\t\t\t<\/a>\t\t\t\t<div class=\"evernoteSiteMemoryClear\">&nbsp;<\/div>\n<\/div>","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Questions from Mark: Did the OT Israelites got saved through faith plus works? Natan&#8217;s answer: The answer is no. The biblical \u201cformula\u201d for initial salvation has never changed: it is and always has been salvation by grace through faith in &hellip; <a href=\"https:\/\/hoshanarabbah.org\/blog\/2019\/07\/20\/dear-natan-how-were-the-ot-israelites-saved\/\">Continue reading <span class=\"meta-nav\">&rarr;<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_jetpack_newsletter_access":"","_jetpack_dont_email_post_to_subs":false,"_jetpack_newsletter_tier_id":0,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paywalled_content":false,"_jetpack_feature_clip_id":0,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":"","jetpack_publicize_message":"","jetpack_publicize_feature_enabled":true,"jetpack_social_post_already_shared":true,"jetpack_social_options":{"image_generator_settings":{"template":"highway","default_image_id":0,"font":"","enabled":false},"version":2},"jetpack_post_was_ever_published":false},"categories":[8],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-15057","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-scripture"],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v28.4 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/product\/yoast-seo-wordpress\/ -->\n<title>Dear Natan: How were the OT Israelites saved? | Hoshana Rabbah Blog<\/title>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/hoshanarabbah.org\/blog\/2019\/07\/20\/dear-natan-how-were-the-ot-israelites-saved\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Dear Natan: How were the OT Israelites saved? | Hoshana Rabbah Blog\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"Questions from Mark: Did the OT Israelites got saved through faith plus works? Natan&#8217;s answer: The answer is no. The biblical \u201cformula\u201d for initial salvation has never changed: it is and always has been salvation by grace through faith in &hellip; Continue reading &rarr;\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:url\" content=\"https:\/\/hoshanarabbah.org\/blog\/2019\/07\/20\/dear-natan-how-were-the-ot-israelites-saved\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:site_name\" content=\"Hoshana Rabbah Blog\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:published_time\" content=\"2019-07-21T01:59:38+00:00\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:modified_time\" content=\"2019-07-21T01:59:46+00:00\" \/>\n<meta name=\"author\" content=\"Natan Lawrence\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:card\" content=\"summary_large_image\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:label1\" content=\"Written by\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data1\" content=\"Natan Lawrence\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:label2\" content=\"Est. reading time\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data2\" content=\"3 minutes\" \/>\n<script type=\"application\/ld+json\" class=\"yoast-schema-graph\">{\"@context\":\"https:\\\/\\\/schema.org\",\"@graph\":[{\"@type\":\"Article\",\"@id\":\"https:\\\/\\\/hoshanarabbah.org\\\/blog\\\/2019\\\/07\\\/20\\\/dear-natan-how-were-the-ot-israelites-saved\\\/#article\",\"isPartOf\":{\"@id\":\"https:\\\/\\\/hoshanarabbah.org\\\/blog\\\/2019\\\/07\\\/20\\\/dear-natan-how-were-the-ot-israelites-saved\\\/\"},\"author\":{\"name\":\"Natan Lawrence\",\"@id\":\"https:\\\/\\\/hoshanarabbah.org\\\/blog\\\/#\\\/schema\\\/person\\\/3ed5c40cd99881c4176aa291f72109df\"},\"headline\":\"Dear Natan: How were the OT Israelites saved?\",\"datePublished\":\"2019-07-21T01:59:38+00:00\",\"dateModified\":\"2019-07-21T01:59:46+00:00\",\"mainEntityOfPage\":{\"@id\":\"https:\\\/\\\/hoshanarabbah.org\\\/blog\\\/2019\\\/07\\\/20\\\/dear-natan-how-were-the-ot-israelites-saved\\\/\"},\"wordCount\":623,\"commentCount\":3,\"articleSection\":[\"Scripture\"],\"inLanguage\":\"en\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"CommentAction\",\"name\":\"Comment\",\"target\":[\"https:\\\/\\\/hoshanarabbah.org\\\/blog\\\/2019\\\/07\\\/20\\\/dear-natan-how-were-the-ot-israelites-saved\\\/#respond\"]}]},{\"@type\":\"WebPage\",\"@id\":\"https:\\\/\\\/hoshanarabbah.org\\\/blog\\\/2019\\\/07\\\/20\\\/dear-natan-how-were-the-ot-israelites-saved\\\/\",\"url\":\"https:\\\/\\\/hoshanarabbah.org\\\/blog\\\/2019\\\/07\\\/20\\\/dear-natan-how-were-the-ot-israelites-saved\\\/\",\"name\":\"Dear Natan: How were the OT Israelites saved? | Hoshana Rabbah Blog\",\"isPartOf\":{\"@id\":\"https:\\\/\\\/hoshanarabbah.org\\\/blog\\\/#website\"},\"datePublished\":\"2019-07-21T01:59:38+00:00\",\"dateModified\":\"2019-07-21T01:59:46+00:00\",\"author\":{\"@id\":\"https:\\\/\\\/hoshanarabbah.org\\\/blog\\\/#\\\/schema\\\/person\\\/3ed5c40cd99881c4176aa291f72109df\"},\"breadcrumb\":{\"@id\":\"https:\\\/\\\/hoshanarabbah.org\\\/blog\\\/2019\\\/07\\\/20\\\/dear-natan-how-were-the-ot-israelites-saved\\\/#breadcrumb\"},\"inLanguage\":\"en\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"ReadAction\",\"target\":[\"https:\\\/\\\/hoshanarabbah.org\\\/blog\\\/2019\\\/07\\\/20\\\/dear-natan-how-were-the-ot-israelites-saved\\\/\"]}]},{\"@type\":\"BreadcrumbList\",\"@id\":\"https:\\\/\\\/hoshanarabbah.org\\\/blog\\\/2019\\\/07\\\/20\\\/dear-natan-how-were-the-ot-israelites-saved\\\/#breadcrumb\",\"itemListElement\":[{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":1,\"name\":\"Home\",\"item\":\"https:\\\/\\\/hoshanarabbah.org\\\/blog\\\/\"},{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":2,\"name\":\"Dear Natan: How were the OT Israelites saved?\"}]},{\"@type\":\"WebSite\",\"@id\":\"https:\\\/\\\/hoshanarabbah.org\\\/blog\\\/#website\",\"url\":\"https:\\\/\\\/hoshanarabbah.org\\\/blog\\\/\",\"name\":\"Hoshana Rabbah Blog\",\"description\":\"Midrash with Natan Lawrence\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"SearchAction\",\"target\":{\"@type\":\"EntryPoint\",\"urlTemplate\":\"https:\\\/\\\/hoshanarabbah.org\\\/blog\\\/?s={search_term_string}\"},\"query-input\":{\"@type\":\"PropertyValueSpecification\",\"valueRequired\":true,\"valueName\":\"search_term_string\"}}],\"inLanguage\":\"en\"},{\"@type\":\"Person\",\"@id\":\"https:\\\/\\\/hoshanarabbah.org\\\/blog\\\/#\\\/schema\\\/person\\\/3ed5c40cd99881c4176aa291f72109df\",\"name\":\"Natan Lawrence\",\"image\":{\"@type\":\"ImageObject\",\"inLanguage\":\"en\",\"@id\":\"https:\\\/\\\/secure.gravatar.com\\\/avatar\\\/b8060f68b3dd1beee389c8dd62002036bcb1a0dbba69cb744079eebb40555f65?s=96&d=mm&r=g\",\"url\":\"https:\\\/\\\/secure.gravatar.com\\\/avatar\\\/b8060f68b3dd1beee389c8dd62002036bcb1a0dbba69cb744079eebb40555f65?s=96&d=mm&r=g\",\"contentUrl\":\"https:\\\/\\\/secure.gravatar.com\\\/avatar\\\/b8060f68b3dd1beee389c8dd62002036bcb1a0dbba69cb744079eebb40555f65?s=96&d=mm&r=g\",\"caption\":\"Natan Lawrence\"},\"sameAs\":[\"http:\\\/\\\/www.hoshanarabbah.org\"],\"url\":\"https:\\\/\\\/hoshanarabbah.org\\\/blog\\\/author\\\/natanl\\\/\"}]}<\/script>\n<!-- \/ Yoast SEO plugin. -->","yoast_head_json":{"title":"Dear Natan: How were the OT Israelites saved? | Hoshana Rabbah Blog","robots":{"index":"index","follow":"follow","max-snippet":"max-snippet:-1","max-image-preview":"max-image-preview:large","max-video-preview":"max-video-preview:-1"},"canonical":"https:\/\/hoshanarabbah.org\/blog\/2019\/07\/20\/dear-natan-how-were-the-ot-israelites-saved\/","og_locale":"en_US","og_type":"article","og_title":"Dear Natan: How were the OT Israelites saved? | Hoshana Rabbah Blog","og_description":"Questions from Mark: Did the OT Israelites got saved through faith plus works? Natan&#8217;s answer: The answer is no. The biblical \u201cformula\u201d for initial salvation has never changed: it is and always has been salvation by grace through faith in &hellip; Continue reading &rarr;","og_url":"https:\/\/hoshanarabbah.org\/blog\/2019\/07\/20\/dear-natan-how-were-the-ot-israelites-saved\/","og_site_name":"Hoshana Rabbah Blog","article_published_time":"2019-07-21T01:59:38+00:00","article_modified_time":"2019-07-21T01:59:46+00:00","author":"Natan Lawrence","twitter_card":"summary_large_image","twitter_misc":{"Written by":"Natan Lawrence","Est. reading time":"3 minutes"},"schema":{"@context":"https:\/\/schema.org","@graph":[{"@type":"Article","@id":"https:\/\/hoshanarabbah.org\/blog\/2019\/07\/20\/dear-natan-how-were-the-ot-israelites-saved\/#article","isPartOf":{"@id":"https:\/\/hoshanarabbah.org\/blog\/2019\/07\/20\/dear-natan-how-were-the-ot-israelites-saved\/"},"author":{"name":"Natan Lawrence","@id":"https:\/\/hoshanarabbah.org\/blog\/#\/schema\/person\/3ed5c40cd99881c4176aa291f72109df"},"headline":"Dear Natan: How were the OT Israelites saved?","datePublished":"2019-07-21T01:59:38+00:00","dateModified":"2019-07-21T01:59:46+00:00","mainEntityOfPage":{"@id":"https:\/\/hoshanarabbah.org\/blog\/2019\/07\/20\/dear-natan-how-were-the-ot-israelites-saved\/"},"wordCount":623,"commentCount":3,"articleSection":["Scripture"],"inLanguage":"en","potentialAction":[{"@type":"CommentAction","name":"Comment","target":["https:\/\/hoshanarabbah.org\/blog\/2019\/07\/20\/dear-natan-how-were-the-ot-israelites-saved\/#respond"]}]},{"@type":"WebPage","@id":"https:\/\/hoshanarabbah.org\/blog\/2019\/07\/20\/dear-natan-how-were-the-ot-israelites-saved\/","url":"https:\/\/hoshanarabbah.org\/blog\/2019\/07\/20\/dear-natan-how-were-the-ot-israelites-saved\/","name":"Dear Natan: How were the OT Israelites saved? | Hoshana Rabbah Blog","isPartOf":{"@id":"https:\/\/hoshanarabbah.org\/blog\/#website"},"datePublished":"2019-07-21T01:59:38+00:00","dateModified":"2019-07-21T01:59:46+00:00","author":{"@id":"https:\/\/hoshanarabbah.org\/blog\/#\/schema\/person\/3ed5c40cd99881c4176aa291f72109df"},"breadcrumb":{"@id":"https:\/\/hoshanarabbah.org\/blog\/2019\/07\/20\/dear-natan-how-were-the-ot-israelites-saved\/#breadcrumb"},"inLanguage":"en","potentialAction":[{"@type":"ReadAction","target":["https:\/\/hoshanarabbah.org\/blog\/2019\/07\/20\/dear-natan-how-were-the-ot-israelites-saved\/"]}]},{"@type":"BreadcrumbList","@id":"https:\/\/hoshanarabbah.org\/blog\/2019\/07\/20\/dear-natan-how-were-the-ot-israelites-saved\/#breadcrumb","itemListElement":[{"@type":"ListItem","position":1,"name":"Home","item":"https:\/\/hoshanarabbah.org\/blog\/"},{"@type":"ListItem","position":2,"name":"Dear Natan: How were the OT Israelites saved?"}]},{"@type":"WebSite","@id":"https:\/\/hoshanarabbah.org\/blog\/#website","url":"https:\/\/hoshanarabbah.org\/blog\/","name":"Hoshana Rabbah Blog","description":"Midrash with Natan Lawrence","potentialAction":[{"@type":"SearchAction","target":{"@type":"EntryPoint","urlTemplate":"https:\/\/hoshanarabbah.org\/blog\/?s={search_term_string}"},"query-input":{"@type":"PropertyValueSpecification","valueRequired":true,"valueName":"search_term_string"}}],"inLanguage":"en"},{"@type":"Person","@id":"https:\/\/hoshanarabbah.org\/blog\/#\/schema\/person\/3ed5c40cd99881c4176aa291f72109df","name":"Natan Lawrence","image":{"@type":"ImageObject","inLanguage":"en","@id":"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/b8060f68b3dd1beee389c8dd62002036bcb1a0dbba69cb744079eebb40555f65?s=96&d=mm&r=g","url":"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/b8060f68b3dd1beee389c8dd62002036bcb1a0dbba69cb744079eebb40555f65?s=96&d=mm&r=g","contentUrl":"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/b8060f68b3dd1beee389c8dd62002036bcb1a0dbba69cb744079eebb40555f65?s=96&d=mm&r=g","caption":"Natan Lawrence"},"sameAs":["http:\/\/www.hoshanarabbah.org"],"url":"https:\/\/hoshanarabbah.org\/blog\/author\/natanl\/"}]}},"jetpack_publicize_connections":[],"jetpack_sharing_enabled":true,"jetpack_shortlink":"https:\/\/wp.me\/p2c0PM-3UR","jetpack_featured_media_url":"","_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/hoshanarabbah.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/15057","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/hoshanarabbah.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/hoshanarabbah.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/hoshanarabbah.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/hoshanarabbah.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=15057"}],"version-history":[{"count":1,"href":"https:\/\/hoshanarabbah.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/15057\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":15058,"href":"https:\/\/hoshanarabbah.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/15057\/revisions\/15058"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/hoshanarabbah.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=15057"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/hoshanarabbah.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=15057"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/hoshanarabbah.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=15057"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}