I got this comment from Bill in response to my recent blog post entitled “Will you be deluded into following the big lie?” It is so excellent and expresses my exact thoughts so well that I have decided to post it in its entirety without editing. My response follows. — Natan
Bill’s comment:
Would this explain the phenomena of those being deluded by the “flat-Earth” movement? It seems to be a very strong “heart idol” to those who have succumbed to it. It’s way more than just an errant understanding of astronomy and the natural world. It involves interpreting selective parts of Scripture to “prove” a “flat-Earth” and it gets wrapped around the axial of “righteously” endeavoring to expose the vast, conspiratorial lie of NASA and Science which has satanicly been deceiving the world about a “flat-Earth” – because, their delusion asserts, if the spherical Earth “deception” was exposed, then people would know YHWH is real, He would be “proved.” The focus of these adherents shifts away from The Way of Yahshua and becomes supplanted with endless “witnessing” that the earth is “flat” and that we must awaken those deceived by a “ball Earth.” They actually think they are in alignment with His will by pursuing such a quest (and some, too, pursue side-tracking, itching ear topics like the Nephelim (with emphasis on the Book of Enoch), etc.). Even worse, there are some self-appointed leaders of our Hebraic Roots understanding, who get empaneled at conferences, who spout-off such side-tracking issues and get carried away by them. When others who are considered legitimate leaders of Hebraic Roots are informed about this delusion coming upon, and being propagated by, fellow “teachers,” instead of rebuking it, they just evade the matter under the concept of “echad,” unity….go along to get along…we can still fellowship and break bread with one another even though we have different opinions; as if this were the same kind of “difference of opinion” matter as the cslendar. It’s not, imo. The hyper Conspiracism inflicting the hearts, minds, and souls of a growing number of those in the Hebrew Roots movement is alarming. It needs sine very bold rebuking by legitimate leaders and teachers who are truly inspired by Elohim and not self-promoting false teachers inciting intrigue about matters such as the “flat-Earth” and distorted emphases on the Nephelim, etc. / Natan, are you aware of this developing delusion coming over a growing segment of our brothers and sisters?
Natan’s response:
Thank you for your post. Yes, I am aware of these issue and totally agree 1000 percent with everything you have said and have been trying to deal with these things behind the scenes with people who contact me about the flat earth and hyper-conspiratorial viewpoints. THE FLAT EARTH, BOOK OF ENOCH AND OTHER SUCH SUBJECTS ARE A GREAT DISTRACTION TO TAKE OUR EYES OFF YESHUA AND THE BASIC GOSPEL MESSAGE! I can’t emphasize this point enough! These side topics DO NOT bring us into a closer walk with Elohim through Yeshua; therefore, they are not edifying the body of Yeshua in anyway. Rather they are taking us away from him. They are moving us into the area of Hebrew roots gnosticism! Satan is having a heyday as he spews out his flood of deceptive words (see Rev 12:15) through the vehicle of the internet’s tree of knowledge of good and evil.
I’m supposing some promoters of such ideas are, themselves, being deceived because they think more highly of themselves than they ought and, thus, deceive themselves. It is their own insidious spiritual and intellectual pride.
Really, I think, we can all sometimes be subject to the same temptation of spiritual and intellectual pride and wrongly promote things that are not the Truth. They, like us, likely have some good intent to be righteous in such endeavors, but think they are too altogether righteous.
They seem to think others who do not possess some truths that they, themselves, possess, have no righteousness at all, and, to an extreme, they try to find or believe they have discovered some truths that they hope will expose the “deception” and “mistruths” of others. Thus, they promote such, in this case, ridiculous lies, thinking they are promoting Him and His kingdom. However, I think they are really idolatrously promoting themselves, no matter how humble or zealously they may seem in their manner of doing so. Pride is a most insidious iniquity that, as “teachers”, can result in misleading many astray into the great apostacy.
A greater, maybe more important, “delusion” to expose, I think, among the Messianic, Hebrew Roots, Messianic Jewish “movement”, is that the Levitical priesthood and order is still in effect and/or that it should be restored, and that we should be keeping all the Levitical Book of the Law torah. This is leading most people astray and, eventually, fully into the system of the New World Order of a one world religion, including the Zionist movement, wherein the anti-messiah will rule from the throne in its man-ordained new temple and its temple system. That system/order requires a Levitical hierarchy and animal sacrifices. It is “nullifying” Messiah Yeshua’s finished work and the restored royal covenant, the Royal Book of the Covenant and its Royal Torah, His Melchizedek High Priesthood, our restored royal priesthood of believers as a set-apart nation, and the restored Melchizedek priestly order, wherein the Levitical requirements for atonement are no more. There has been a change in the Torah. “For whenever the priesthood is altered, out of necessity an alteration of law also takes place.” [Heb 7:12]
What do you and others think about this? Isn’t this even a more pervasive and more critical “delusion” that needs to be exposed?
Starting the lamb sacrificing again is nothing but a slap in the face of YESHUA! The temple work was done with when the temple was destroyed..don’t you think if Father wanted it built again it wouldn’t take over 2000 years? The temple has no more purpose not sense the curtain was torn from top to bottom. and let’s not forget
(Rev.21:22) NKJV
Peace ladyahsmouse,
I do believe we are in a “no temple” period as well. However please note the verse you refer to is time when there is a new heaven and a new earth. Jesus said the law won’t change until heaven and earth pass away. Such is the time for the verse you quoted.
Hebrews 8:4, clearly there is still a legal priesthood on earth. However at this time there is no temple. I believe the reason is because the Melchizedek priesthood order is to grow at this time as the gospel spreads throughout the world. Just my thoughts.
Anyhow, once there is the kingdom of priests God wants (remember Israel was to be a nation of priests originally, then the Levitical order came into play when they rebelled), we’ll probably be approaching the 1000 year reign of Messiah. As you know there is another functioning physical temple in Jerusalem (according to Ezekiel). Complete with Passover sacrifice.
So the law concerning the Levitical priesthood is still there, just no temple right now.
Recall, Paul in the book of Acts took a Nazarite vow and made the appropriate sacrifices. Again, Hebrews 8:4, concerning the role of the temple on earth before it’s destruction came.
See my comments at ladyyahsmouse. Also the word change in Heb 7:12 is “metatithēmi”, to transfer. The authority of the law is transferred to the greater Melchizedek priesthood over the earthly Levitical priesthood. It doesn’t mean the Levitical is done away with, not lawfully anyway.
Natan and Bill,
I have been trying to combat the supposed biblically based flat earth for over a year now.
They believe in a flat earth surrounded by an ice wall.
The popular person currently spear heading this movement claims the bible is a flat earth book.
As we all know there is not one verse that says the earth is flat nor surrounded by an ice an wall.
So it comes down to his interpretation of certain verses.
He is misleading a lot of people on this topic and these people will swarm like flies on crap as soon anything gets posted on the internet about the flat earth..
I am surprised they have not posted here yet..
Our best way to expose this deception is to know all the verses they are using and be ready to explain how they do not prove what I call the icy walled pancake.
Speaking about their motives or reasons for believing the icy walled pancake will not deter him or anyone who believes this lie.
Exposing the error in their understanding of the verses will..
Because they spend literally most of their time on this issue they have fairly good responses to almost anything you tell them proves the earth is a sphere.
And anyone who counters them must be on top of their game otherwise they will win the debate even though the truth is the earth is a sphere not an icy walled pancake.
call a spade a spade
It is Rob Skiba that is straddling the fence- spreading the ‘good news’ about the earth’s flatness, and leading a whole army to flood the internet with this garbage daily; meanwhile claiming that he himself doesn’t fully believe the flat-earth theory..
i have lost 10+ friends who couldn’t accept proof of the contrary
Thanks Rob- you jerk
Shame on Rob Skiba! I watched his video. Not impressed. Very sad.
Thanks, Mikohen! [Prior military, btw? 🙂 ]
HALLALUYAH! Father always answer our prayers, I have been praying for confirmation on this “flat earth”” thingy” and this has confirmed that it is a bunch a whoohaa just to take our eyes of Yeshua. I mean does it really matter if the earth is flat or round, I mean really??? It has nothing to do with right or wrong, obedience or sin. That’s all I have to say about that.. Thank you..
I wonder why in all of my years of talking to atheist, agnostics, and humanists about the existence of an almighty creator of the universe I have never once heard any of them reference the earth being a sphere as proof that my Elohim does not exist. Not one time. If I didn’t know people who believe this I would think this is a joke. Man does this make us look bad.
No kidding it makes us look bad!
That is just one of the points I have been trying to tell Rob and those that are following him on this..
They makes the bible look silly. I have tried telling him this.. but he will not listen..
Kirt, I’ve tried telling this to Rob, too, and was met with some quite hostile and “non-fruit-of-the-Spirit-like” responses, further indicating to me that he is way off-base and needs to be taken aside in private and rebuked. In our Internet realm, and our non-affiliation structure of HR, this is not an easy task. I’ve written to two legitimate HR teachers, but haven’t gotten a response. (Btw, I have reason to believe that Rob Skiba uses a professional agent to book slots for him at HR conferences and on-line interviews. [My reasoning is the proximity of commentary by Zachary Bauer (New2Torah) after his interview with Rob Skiba; Zach mentioned as an aside that he (himself) now uses an agent for bookings. Since Rob Skiba’s livelihood is associated with public speaking engagements to sell his books, DVDs, and other pursuits, I have surmised that Rob likewise uses an agent, which would account for his significant presence at all things HR-related…he’s even in an upcoming documentary on HR in which Natan was also interviewed in. So, if my surmise is wrong, then I’m in error about Rob using a professional agent, but this is what I base my conjecture upon.]
Follow the money! What does the Bible say about preaching for filthy lucre? Merchandising the gospel? The corporate Christian church has made a science of this. It’s part of Babylon the Great NWO system that we’re to be coming out of.
As for this Bible teacher and pastor, I make my living as the owner of a tree care company. Here’s my website to prove it: goodnewstree.com.
Out of the last 3 decades that I have been seeking and knocking I have always fallen back on ” What did Jesus say?”..(before I knew His Name Yeshua)” And that still holds true for me today. It is He Whom I care has what to say..
Now consider this:
The flat earth and similar foolish ideas that are tangential to the basic gospel message WAS NOT what Yeshua or his disciples preached.
John the Baptist preached, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand” (Matt 3:2). So did Yeshua the Messiah (Matt 4:17). Yeshua commanded his disciples to do the same thing (Matt 28:20), and to go into all the world and to preach the gospel of repentance from sin/Torahlessness (Mark 16:15). Paul preached only the gospel of Yeshua (Rom 1:16), and Messiah crucified (1 Cor 1:23) and nothing else (1 Cor 2:2). Paul preached the unsearchable riches of Yeshua everywhere he went until his dying day (Eph 3:8). Paul instructed NT believers to follow or imitate him as he imitated Yeshua (1 Cor 11:1). Paul and the other apostles gave their lives preaching the gospel of Yeshua—the message of the cross. It transformed lives, revolutionized the Roman empire and turned the world upside down in a very short time.
Do we really think that we can improve on the methods of John the Baptist, Yeshua the Son of Elohim and apostles by preaching anything other than the gospel message of Yeshua the Messiah as rooted in the Torah?
Go to the YouTube channels of those preaching flat earth idiocy and other such nonsense and scroll down through their videos. How many of their videos have to do with the basic message of repentance for the kingdom of heaven is at hand? How many are preaching Yeshua and him crucified? Go ahead. Check it out! So what’s wrong with this picture?
Now scroll down through Hoshana Rabbah’s YouTube channel (https://www.youtube.com/user/HoshanaRabbah?feature=mhee) and compare. Who is following Yeshua and preaching the gospel? Who is being obedient to the Written and Living Torah-Word of YHVH Elohim? By their fruits you shall know them (Matt 7:20). Judge righteous judgment (John 7:24).
How sad! Thanks for trying.
You said they don’t speak of Yesshua and his basic message of repentance. Yet [———] ministry is about speaking to those who claim to already BE Christians, and already claim the Scriptures as true, and already have repented as John the Baptist taught. He is not speaking about salvation. He is speaking to those who have accepted the teachings of this World as superior to the Gospel, but yet still claim to believe the gospel.
Except under very rare circumstances, we don’t mention the names of other people or ministries on my blog, which is why I deleted the name you mentioned. On this blog and in this ministry, we attempt to deal with issues from a biblical perspective, not personalities.
In the video teaching you referenced, I never mentioned a name. You can guess all day long the person/s to which I was referring, but you still don’t know for sure, since no names were mentioned. So let’s deal with the issue, not the personality, and not jump to conclusions, which is what the person you mentioned did with me in excerpting me on his video and putting my face on the cover of his YouTube video. This was presumptuous and unrighteous on his part. This is not a proper biblical approach or response.
The only times the apostles mentioned names of people in the NT was with grievous wolves and major sinners (e.g. Simon Magus, Ananias and Sapphira). Perhaps the person you mentioned thinks I’m one of these, which is why he mentioned my name. If so, then that’s between him and Elohim. He will answer to the Creator for his actions against me. If not, then, if he’s going to follow the example of the apostles, he shouldn’t be mentioning names. Otherwise, it’s simply about him defending his so-called reputation and ego. If so, that’s pride, and that’s a sin too. Again, that’s between him and his Creator.
Now with regard teaching things like the flat earth, etc. and calling it preaching to believers, your argument, with all due respect, doesn’t hold up. All of the epistles were written to believers in churches, not to the unsaved. Even so and notwithstanding, the apostles were still teaching the basics of the gospel message to these believers; they were not teaching all these fringe things that some Bible “teachers” are teaching today, as they gain a large following and sell a lot of stuff to fund their ministry-businesses. This, too is unbiblical and ungodly. Yeshua died penniless and so did the apostles, most likely. They did not make businesses out of their ministries. They were preachers of the way, not gospel peddlers who were selling books and videos and preaching at conferences for money!
So, instead of a gospel, apostolic model, what do we now have? All too often, we have many so-called Bible “teachers” not preaching a non-biblical and non-apostolic “gospel message,” but they are following a non-biblical business model, and then unrighteously attacking those who are attempting to practice the biblical, apostolic model of ministry and preaching. They, therefore, have added sin, to sin to sin. I am not their judge. YHVH is and his word is. I’m simply looking at the spiritual fruit on their tree (Matt 7:15–20; John 7:24), looking at what they say and do and then comparing it with Scripture. Does that make me evil for shining the light of truth on them (even though I mention no one by name, but simply deal with issues pertaining to the righteous standards that are laid out in the Scriptures)? Perhaps so, in their minds. It’s like blaming the mailman for delivering mail that you doesn’t like. In the first century, the religious folks crucified Yeshua and some of the early disciples for doing the same thing—for tickling ears and not preaching what some people wanted to hear, and for calling a spade a spade when it came to religious phonies and hypocrites. Now we crucify with our mouths and over the internet. May YHVH have mercy!
Excellent point!
I am learning that it is not up to me to change a person’s delusion. “For though I walk in the flesh, I do not war according to the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in Elohim for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of YHVH bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Messiah.” 2 Cor 10:3-5 I am called to be an intercessor for the Kingdom of light against the lies of the enemy. As soldiers in the army of Yahshua (2 Tim 2:3-4), we walk according to the Word of our Commander and Chief. We keep our eyes on the ancient paths (Jeremiah 6:16), and we walk the straight and narrow Way of our King and Master, Yahshua. We are about His business which is His Great Commission (Matthew 28:18-20). We are not called to get into apologetic arguments with people who choose to follow their own delusions and choose to be more immersed in heresay then they are in the Word of Elohim. We can intercede for them and hope that YHVH turns them from delusions of darkness to the Truth. But for His saints, we keep our eyes on the prize, and work to do what He has ordained for us to do in these last days (Job 23:10-14) When you consider that each one of us were born for such a time as this, it is a sobering thought. We are here for one purpose only and that is to do the will of our Father and to be co-laborers with Yahshua in bringing forth the fulfillment of His Kingdom here on earth.
Well said. All these side issues are distractions from what we should be really doing, which is to preach “Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” If we get sucked into trying to refute every new wind of doctrine, then valuable time and resources are spent NOT doing what our Commander and Chief told us to do.
Michelle, thanks for your insight which is indeed valid. In this matter, though, isolated personal delusions are one thing, and intercession would seem an appropriate way of dealing with such. But when there are highly recognized, self-proclaimed “leaders” of Hebrew Roots, being empaneled or booked in guest speaker slots at conferences about the Torah, and who make a living by selling their books and DVDs marketing themselves as spiritual authorities, and slying playing a deceitful political game of “well, I’m about 80% there that the earth is flat, but 100% believe the Bible is a flat-Earth Book,” then that’s a different story. Rebuke, not intercession, seems to be the fitting remedy for this kind of situation. It’s not isolated personal delusions, it’s becoming very wide spread due to the Internet. / Yes, Rob Skiba is the one example I’m citing in the foregoing, but there are many others with considerable numbers of followers who are doing the same thing: using distorted literal interpretations of Scripture to make their case, to “Satan’s deception” inherent in every conspiracy under the sun including that NASA was created and is still run by Nazi’s; that we never went to the moon; yadayada… The focus is off The Way of Yahshua. / This tickling ear (I also refer to it as “strange fire,” although that may not be a correct Biblical context) Conspiracism discredits Hebrew Roots and creates a stumbling block for others who might otherwise consider the efficacy of Torah-observance. / Intercession is ALWAYS applicable for everything, but there comes times when rebuking is in order and is a responsibility to Elohim in guarding the Torah. Other legitimate teachers of Hebrew Roots, whose attentions’ have been called to this matter, seem to only want harmony and either ignore it or dismiss it as just a simple (legitimate) difference of opinion.
The effect is that this conspiratorial notion (and errant Biblical literalism) is being mollycoddled. / I don’t see an easy answer, but do see a rebuke being a very large part of it somehow, someway. It is a least a two-fold problem: Conspiracism (that gives too much “omnipotence” to Satan’s dceptive capabilities) and Biblical Literalism.
Bill,
I agree with your post which is why i had posted refuting responses to Skiba on his Facebook.. I never cut him down personally only posted refuting evidence which led to him blocking me..
I still post refuting responses on many of his YouTube videos.
As I said in my response above the best way to put out this fire is to directly combat the verses he is using.
And post the proofs of the sphere that he has no answer for or leads to an answer that does not make sense.
Than everyone can see for themselves..
Kirt, Thanks for your efforts! It is very frustrating. I’ve tried likewise at various places he has shown up on YT (but not FB – I don’t use FB). Blocking those in disagreement with you, who are abusive but just in disagreement, is a further indication that he is off-track. The kind of nasty responses from him also indicate he’s off-track, to put it mildly.
Kirt, I meant: “…who are NOT abusive but just in disagreement…”
Preach it bro! You’re on a good roll.
The flat earth proponents are showing their ignorance of basic biblical exegesis. The fact is that large percentage of Scripture is written using poetic language in the Hebraic style. This doesn’t come through in our English Bibles very well. Nearly all the Writings, some of the Torah and most of the Prophets are written in poetic or prose form using many types of literary devices to convey deep spiritual truths. This is not the language of science, but of the heart and spirit. When we try to interpret poetic and allegorical language in a literal sense and attempt to derive scientific fact from it, we can find ourselves running into problems. This is what the flat earthers are doing. If they’re going to take literally some of the things the Scriptures say about the earth, then we have to believe also that Yeshua is a door, a chicken, and has eagles wings, that the saints are literal salt and a candle and that all the monsters in Daniel and Revelation are literal. We could go on and on. At some point, we’ve got to engage our brains here and critically analyze.
When we read secular poetry or poetic descriptions of things on a day to day basis, we don’t accept everything we read as being literal. However, when some folks start reading the Bible, they suddenly check their brains in at the door and loose all critical thinking skills and the ability to differentiate poetic language from that which is literal. It seems that they lose all their reasoning and logical thinking skills. It’s called twisting the Word of Elohim due to our own ignorance. Oy vey! When you have “respected” Bible teachers doing this, it really gets dicey. And then you have the folks who believe everything that’s on the internet as being factual and authoritative. Caveat emptor!!!!
How Timely this is.
I have just ‘come across’ this 48 hours ago in reading a discourse that used the Dabhar(literal) translation of the book of Revelation to bring up some very heavy points about the contents within that Book of the canonised Bible.
The author linked to flat earth & other theories of possible interpretation. He did have however some scripture interpretation that creates a very different document to the one we struggle to understand.
I have no doubt that Satan has & will use people to promote disinformation about many Truths of Elohim but as before whether the earth is flat or not, that is up to Elohim.
However I do believe that we are meant to watch & wait on Elohim as servants first & foremost but NOT unaware of what is going on around us. We must keep redirecting our attention to worship & acknowledge Yah’s truth for He is in the Praises of His People.
Believers will study themselves approved & the Set Apart Spirit will guide those who are faithful.
Though the UN flag represents a flat earth, it is a distraction to our purpose & not our banner (Christ Is!) As to which way conspiracy or facts are used to confuse men is unimportant unless it directly relates to changing the Faithful of Elohim’s actions of worship away from Elohim’s desire. If we look up in worship to the ONE who created us & HIS plan for Salvation we will be DOING what He has prepared for us to do before we were born. Shalom to All in Messiah….. those coming into His Ways. FJ
Amein!
Natan……Interested in your answer to Jerry & Lisa:<)
My answer is posted on the blog.